Episode 2: Adoption Real Talk – With Brian Rosenberg from Gays With Kids

Brian Rosenberg: 00:00

You don't know how long you're gonna take this child in. You have no idea whether they're gonna be with you for a day or three years. Your goal might ultimately be to become a forever family, to become parents of someone. The point of the foster care system as as a foster parent is not to build your family, it's to support the child and the original birth family instead.

Bret: 00:51

Welcome back to From Husbands to Dads.

Stephen: 00:54

From Husbands to Dads. Hi. I'm Steven.

Bret: 00:56

I'm Brett. We And are the brotherhoods. And wanna talk about the path to parenthood. Yeah. Because for so many people, it's it's It's just a one and done It's a

Stephen: 01:06

and one and out, and you're pregnant. And

Bret: 01:11

for a lot of people, it's not.

Stephen: 01:14

And for us And for two men, guess what? It's not like that. You guessed it. It's not that easy.

Bret: 01:20

You know, there's, of course, most people think of two two choices when it comes to building a family for same sex dads, especially, and that is surrogacy

Stephen: 01:31

or adoption. Adoption. Yeah.

Bret: 01:33

We we decided to go the path of surrogacy Mhmm. Which we'll talk more about in further episodes. Mhmm. But it was not an easy decision, and we thought it would be interesting to talk a little bit about that pathway for us when we first started because we knew what year was it that we went to the LGBTQ centers events around Family Building?

Stephen: 01:56

I think that was in, like, 2016 Yeah. Or 2015. It may have been yeah. It was a long time ago.

Bret: 02:02

And we were like, okay, we're just gonna go get more information. And we found out that the Gay and Lesbian Center had this it was free event where they would just talk about the differences of surrogacy and adoption and Yeah. Kind of weight

Stephen: 02:15

and fostering and yeah.

Bret: 02:17

But that's the thing. People say surrogacy and adoption like it's two choices, but there's so much nuance to both that you don't even realize. Right? Like, surrogacy is not just a one thing. It's there's the process of egg donors and IVF, and then there's who's gonna carry it, there's all that.

Bret: 02:34

And adoption, there's foster, there's the search to adopt, there's there's, open adoption, there's a lot of nuance to all of this. And if you've gone a non conventional route of building a family, you understand that. But I think that so many people don't.

Stephen: 02:51

Yeah. Well, and also, like, it's interesting, like, for me personally, I can remember going to that that informational meeting and and always thinking that we would just adopt. And I think I even left that thinking that we would just adopt. I think at the time, we had friends of ours who were trying to have a a child through surrogacy, and we would hear what they were going through in their journey, and it sounded like a lot, and I remember just thinking, like, that's not for me. Yeah.

Stephen: 03:27

And then, I don't really know, like, really what changed, but so that was probably in, like, 2015. And then I remember in around 2017, there was definitely, like, a voice inside me that was like, we need to have a child. We need to have a child. I wanna have a child. Like, it was like it was just, like, burning inside of me.

Stephen: 03:48

And then we watched the movie Other People with Molly Shannon, and the movie is about a mother dying of cancer, and she has a gay son and a daughter, a straight daughter, and a daughter. And the movie focuses on the relationship between the gay son and the mother, and at the end, she's on her deathbed. So it's not the typical Molly Shannon movie. It's not Mary Katherine Gallagher, but she's on her deathbed, and she says to her son, promise me you'll always come see your sister because you when you do, you'll always see me in her. And there's something, like, just so beautiful about that, And and I think that it felt just like a path we wanted to try, because at the time, like, whether it was God or whether it was intuition or I don't know what, but it was like my head wouldn't stop saying, have a baby, have a baby, have a baby, you need to have a baby, or whatever it was.

Stephen: 04:50

I don't know if it was that, but it was that message. And then we saw that movie, and I was literally like, we need to start this now. What do we need to do? And that was kind of like how it happened. That was the switch that that's all that it took, and so we decided that we would

Bret: 05:09

We start knew another family who had recently had had a child, and they had gotten they got some help from Men Having Babies, which was another organization that helps two dad families. So they have a big convention thing in New York City and I signed us up to go, I think you were in a show at the time, I was unemployed.

Stephen: 05:26

By yourself, yeah.

Bret: 05:27

And so I went by myself and one of the fertility doctors had reached out and he just seemed really nice and he said, let's just talk. And so we talked and he was a gay dad himself and he answered a lot of my questions and I was like, maybe you're our doctor. And that's who actually became our fertility doctor, Doctor. Leon Duras. We weren't sure still that we would wanna do surrogacy because of the cost.

Bret: 05:53

Like that was the one thing that we kept thinking of whenever meeting people and talking about it. Was like, it's gonna cost you a 150 k. Now it's probably more. And we were like, we don't have that kind of money. We are actors.

Bret: 06:06

Like, our shows close in a heartbeat and then we have to figure out how we're gonna make ends meet. And he was the one who was like, You don't have to come up with that money up front. We could do this in small increments and see how far we get. And I was like, I love that, let's just try

Brian Rosenberg: 06:19

it.

Stephen: 06:19

Yeah, and that's kind of like the agreement that Brett and I made with each other, was like, Let's just start, and if we get to, like, the biggest hurdle that we don't know how to overcome, then at least we tried, and

Bret: 06:32

that's how we did. You know what? And then we'll just adopt. Yeah. If we can't do it

Stephen: 06:35

Or we'll figure out yeah, we'll figure out something, yeah. So We know we wanna have a baby, let's just start here and see what happens.

Bret: 06:40

Part of the genetic choice for me was like a biological decision making for me, students is very emotional, but I also have a brother who has a genetic intellectual disability that's passed through genes and it's something I was super nervous about. And so there's another option, you know, another reason why, you know, going the route of surrogacy can be good is that you can eliminate a lot of you can at least try to eliminate. You can always the risks of certain types of diseases or disabilities because they can do all that DNA testing before you do any sort of transfer. And so that was one thing for me was, you know, I grew up with a brother who I love very much, but that intellectual disability and the stress of that growing up as a child, I just don't know that I had it in me to to do it again. And that's not to say that I couldn't because I will love my child no matter what, I will be there for him.

Bret: 07:41

In fact, I think that having a brother with a disability has taught me how to be much more patient and calm with my toddler at this moment. I think if I hadn't had that experience with my brother, I probably wouldn't be able to handle a lot of the moments that I do handle, I think, smoother than most. But but who's who's to know? Right? But I that was another reason why I thought, let's look into biological family building and see.

Bret: 08:12

Adoption,

Brian Rosenberg: 08:13

a lot

Bret: 08:13

of people I know who decided to adopt, and one of the stories that stood out to me from that event at LGBT the LGBTQ plus center was this woman who said when I I was afraid that because this child was not mine and I adopted her and she you know, the mother you know, I I literally just drove to the hospital and had never met the woman and came home with this baby. And I remember her saying, like, there was a day where I looked at this child, and I said, this is mine. I love this child with all my heart. So I know adoption is no different. Like, your your attachment to your child is your attachment to your child, and you're gonna love them no matter what.

Bret: 08:55

Yeah. And that's why we thought it would be great to have our guest today from Gays With Kids, Brian Rosenberg, who has built an entire platform, the TWK Academy family building. It's a nonprofit spin off of his popular gays with kids website and a virtual community that he launched in 02/2014. Brian has opened up his academy to not just gay dads, but to all families to learn all their options. So there's a lot of education videos on not just adoption.

Bret: 09:28

People are gonna talk mostly about adoption today because that's not something we had the most experience about. Mhmm. But you can learn a lot about your path to family building and your options regardless of your gender, regardless of your sexuality through the GWK Academy. So we wanna make sure you know. You can go to gwkacademy.org and check that out.

Bret: 09:46

But here is our interview with Brian Rosenberg. Hi, Brian. Welcome to the podcast.

Brian Rosenberg: 09:55

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.

Bret: 09:58

Now we do know Gays With Kids offers all kinds of amazing solutions for however people choose to build their family, but we wanted to talk to you specifically about adoption because we don't specifically have that experience and haven't been to that experience, and we thought who better to go to than the founder of Gays With Kids.

Brian Rosenberg: 10:20

Absolutely. I'm happy to be here.

Bret: 10:22

So adoption is often surrounded by myths. What are some common misconceptions about adoption that you've encountered, especially for LGBTQ plus parents?

Brian Rosenberg: 10:33

Sure. That's a great question. I think the first thing is, you know, LGBTQ plus people can't adopt, which and many people assume that adopter agencies won't work with us. Well, to be honest with you, many won't. I think it's one in four agencies are LGBTQ plus are open to working with LGBTQ plus families.

Brian Rosenberg: 10:53

I think the other another thing is, you know, birth parents are not gonna choose LGBTQ plus folks. And here's what actually, here's what I say to that. When you think about it, when a birth parent is getting ready to find someone to to take over parenting their child, Who better than someone each and every one of us, just by the fact of who we are, and we've had to somehow come to terms with who we are and that we're different than other. We all have some level of resilience and inner strength that it took for us to get to where we are today. And so I think that actually attracts us often to people who are, you know, not forget the people who are really religious, obviously, but everyone else.

Brian Rosenberg: 11:33

I think that actually helps attract us to others. So those are two myths I just busted there. You know, the I don't even know why I'm gonna say this, but, you know, children need a mom and a dad. Well, we're we I start that. I didn't even I didn't even countered that when I started getting with kids ten and a half years ago.

Brian Rosenberg: 11:51

Like, we know that's just not true. I think some people are concerned. So when we're talking about adoption, I know we're gonna get into it later on. There are several types of adoption. Right?

Brian Rosenberg: 12:01

It's not always the newborn baby. And I think some people are afraid or they make the the the argument that if you adopted older kid or a child, they're not gonna be LGBTQ plus friendly. You know what? All kids in the foster care system want is a safe, loving, nurturing home. I think those are misconceptions that are out there.

Stephen: 12:23

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you kind of already started talking about this. Many people think adoption is only about giving a child a better home. Can you explain why adoption is also about building a family and creating bonds?

Stephen: 12:35

And I think you kind of started to talk about that.

Brian Rosenberg: 12:37

Yes. So first of all, there are several different routes to adoption. Right? You can adopt domestically, you can adopt a newborn infant. You can do that with an agency.

Brian Rosenberg: 12:50

Some people like to do what's called an independent adoption where they're actually working with more with a an attorney. You can adopt on the foster care system. The foster care system, there are over four there are about 375,000 children in The US foster care system alone. The whole point of the foster care system is what's called reunification, that the child in the system is eventually reunified with some births they'll remember. Could be parents, grandparents, cousins.

Brian Rosenberg: 13:18

You know, honestly, it could be a great second grade English teacher or a little league coach, whomever was in that, you know, life at some point when things were going alright. But the truth of the matter is many kids will never be reunified. There is no one for them to be reunified with, and it turns out there are over a 100,000. So more than 25% of the kids in the system are going to be what's called freed up for adoption. And those kids run the age I mean, there are some kids who go in the system as soon as they're born.

Brian Rosenberg: 13:47

Our son almost did. And you can be in a system up until the age of majority, and that differs by state. In some states, it's 18. It could be 21. So there are kids all ages, although the average age is, probably about nine years old, eight or nine years old.

Brian Rosenberg: 14:01

So there's that. And then, of course, it's inter country adoption. There are three and a half countries in the world that openly embrace LGBTQ plus folks from other countries to adopt children their citizens who have been freed up for intercountry adoption. That is Colombia, South Africa, Brazil, and a few states in Mexico, hence the three and a half that you we could adopt as well. So

Bret: 14:28

Just just explaining all of the different options people have, and I think that most people don't don't realize, especially internationally, that there's really not that many options outside The United States. Also, I

Stephen: 14:42

guess kind of going back to the question that we asked is like, how does intended parents or adopted parents sorry, I'm using the wrong terminology adopted who are adopting a child who is older, what is the process for them to get to know the child? Like how many visits or experiences do they have with the child before they are going to their home?

Brian Rosenberg: 15:07

Sure. That that differs, and it depends on the agency and where in the state, etcetera. But there what it's very I will tell you this. It's a very intentional process. So there are a couple of things.

Brian Rosenberg: 15:18

You can remember I told you out of the 300 and something children, there are a 120, 16,000 or 13,000 freed up for adoption. So you can as a you can sign up in the foster industry, foster agency and say, I only want to work. I only wanna be matched with a child who's already freed up for adoption. Not every agency, most agencies will not allow that, but there are some that do. And in fact, there's one in New York City, you gotta believe, they only work with kids who are already freed for adoption.

Brian Rosenberg: 15:50

And they have this oh, and it's called you gotta believe they're awesome. And they have this whole process by which they and they start like, it's all about building a forever family from the get go. They don't even call themselves foster kids because these kids are free for adoption, and they gotta go right but and then in terms of when you when you're a foster parent, and, again, those could be from babies to age of majority, you you don't know how long you're gonna take this child in. You have no idea whether they're gonna be with you for a day or three years. And even though you may hope your goal might ultimately be to become a forever family, to become parents of someone, the point of the foster care system as as a foster parent is not to build your family.

Brian Rosenberg: 16:38

It's to support the child and the original birth family instead. So they're gonna have the child already, and then what'll happen is it turns out while the child is living with them, they become freed for adoption, and then they start the process. So they're already there.

Stephen: 16:56

Got it.

Brian Rosenberg: 16:56

There are instances where, you know, people are sort of matched with kids who are free for adoption that they haven't been living with them, and that's a whole different ball of wax. And, it, you know, depends on the state. Everyone's got their own practices, but I could tell you it's a very deliberate process of connecting the two. And that's one of the cool things about adoption is when you are finally a family, like, you've got all this experience and time together already, and you've gone through it together. And I think it just creates, honestly, a stronger bond.

Bret: 17:30

And that's fascinating. Beautiful. Yeah. What what do you think are some misconceptions about birth parents Oh. In adoption scenarios?

Brian Rosenberg: 17:38

Sure. So several. I think that a lot well, I'll be honest with you. So every state has its own laws. Birth when a when a birth mom gives birth to her baby that she puts up for adoption, she so first, I wanna talk about an infant, a newborn infant adoption, then we'll talk about Sure.

Brian Rosenberg: 17:56

The budget. So with a birth mom, depending on what state she's in, she has an opportunity to change her mind. So for example, in New York state, she can have thirty days. And, we actually know someone who had a baby for twenty nine days and then the birth mom changed her mind. When we I we adopted our son in New York state, and, we were so nervous that his birth mom was gonna want him back because we fell in love the right way that we had to write letters every first for the first four weeks, once a week, then once a month to the first six months.

Brian Rosenberg: 18:26

And we kept, like, oh, he's okay. You know? We're having our right time. He cries a lot or whatever. And they got talking and said, are you guys not doing well?

Brian Rosenberg: 18:34

I'm like, no. We just don't want the birth mom to take him back. That's not the case. So the birth parents get to so I think by everyone's concern is the birth parent's gonna come and take the kids. Right?

Brian Rosenberg: 18:46

Yeah. Second thing is they're concerned that the birth parent's gonna be in their lives. Well, you guys are dads now. So you already know what I'm about to share, which is we cannot have enough positive people in our children's lives who love them. There's no such thing as having too many.

Brian Rosenberg: 19:03

So if a birth family wants to stay in your child's life, that's freaking awesome. Like Yeah. You're lucky to have that. Yeah. And we know people who the grandparents are involved and the aunts and cousins and uncles.

Brian Rosenberg: 19:17

So, like, all different permutations. Yeah. So what in terms of foster to adopt, I think, you know, there's a the misconception that first of all, I should tell you, every child and I told you they're all run the age, run the gamut age, when they started in the system, the one thing, though, that they all have in common is that not one child deserves to be in the foster care system. They are all there through no fault of their own. I think people take hear that, and they think, oh, then the parents are no good.

Brian Rosenberg: 19:49

You know? And I think that's a misconception. These are people going through hard times. Some of them are doing pretty bad things, but they're going through hard times. And I think as the adoptive parents, a potential prospective adoptive parents, we really need to show a lot more empathy and to those families.

Brian Rosenberg: 20:09

We don't know what's going on and what their lives have been like before they came to this moment in time where you took over the child the children's care. So

Bret: 20:18

Wow. Yeah. And then those are things that I think most people don't even think about. Right? Like and it's so good that we're having this conversation.

Bret: 20:26

Now do you think that there are particular challenges or benefits for LGBTQ plus couples when considering domestic adoption versus international adoption?

Brian Rosenberg: 20:35

Well, so the biggest thing, as I said earlier, there are three and a half countries in which we can adopt as out and proud people. I am a firm believer. Like, I I shouldn't say I don't judge how people wanna build their families. And years ago, it was much more challenging. And so people had, like you know, they would go.

Brian Rosenberg: 20:52

I know couples where one of them would go to the country and adopt and do all the paperwork, and then they come back because that was something that was gonna happen. That being said, I I love going you know, I was at Columbia, spent shape in one of our adoption family building partners, the oldest adoption agency in the country. Not only do they do domestic infant adoption, but they also do intercountry adoption. They brought me to Columbia with them six weeks ago, and I got to visit these different child protection services institutions. Think orphanages.

Brian Rosenberg: 21:24

But half the kids were in the sis were gonna go back to their families and the others were not. And they were gonna need to be adopted, and a lot of those kids would not be adopted from the country. Why? Because they have special needs, sibling groups. Quite frankly, the kids of color have a higher time.

Brian Rosenberg: 21:40

You know, the darker kids have a higher time getting adopted there as well. It's crazy. So did we have to worry you have to worry about the fact that there are just three and a half countries. Secondly, you do have to worry not only do you have to all the adoption laws in your home state in The US, but you're also managing the adoption laws in their home state. So but, you know, when I was at this and I tell you, what I learned is Colombia has the worst rates of domestic violence in the world.

Brian Rosenberg: 22:10

I met kids and women who have really been through the ringer. I mean, I could tell you, met this one poor boy. He was he had cigarette burns up and down his back from his mom's boyfriend. He was blind because he had hit him so hard that his retina's detached. And you know what he did when he came when he when we came up to him, he gave us each a hug.

Brian Rosenberg: 22:27

And these other kids, they come running up to us. They want high fives and hugs and to play, and I'm throwing them up in the air. And I realized even these kids who had been through the ringer, and they really have been, all they wanted and all they deserved, just love and support and fun. And so I think that whether you're doing it domestically from the system or you're doing it internationally, you know that you're gonna be just taking care of kids who are at the most vulnerable points in their lives. So that's really it.

Brian Rosenberg: 22:59

I mean, other than the fact that, you know, it's it's gonna cost you a little bit more too because these countries have rules about how long you have to stay there for and how long the paperwork is gonna be there. It could be I just forget. It's, like, six to twelve weeks depending on the country. So but a lot of people, as I understand you, who adopt internationally tend to do it because they've got some kind of relationship with that country. Maybe they're Colombian descent or South African descent.

Brian Rosenberg: 23:26

Maybe their their boyfriend is or they speak the language or some some way that they really feel connected and therefore they want to go into country. It doesn't matter if there are options here.

Stephen: 23:40

Wow. For many LGBTQ plus couples, the choice comes down to adoption versus surrogacy or biological parenting. What are some advantages and challenges of adoption over other family building methods? And can you also you you started to talk about just the financials of it all. You know, surrogacy can be quite pricey.

Stephen: 24:00

And can you just kinda walk us through some of the cost adoption?

Brian Rosenberg: 24:05

Sure. Happy happy to. I'll start by saying, hey. GWK Academy, we support and we celebrate all paths to family building. We recognize that the decision that people make is a deeply, deeply personal one.

Brian Rosenberg: 24:20

And it's let's say it's often rooted in our own experiences. Right? Based on that, honestly, what may be a benefit to one person is not gonna be a benefit to someone else. What may be considered a challenge to someone is not gonna be that big of a challenge to someone else. So it's it's hard to say, you know, what are the what are the biggest advantages and challenges.

Brian Rosenberg: 24:43

What I will do, though, when it comes to financials, that is definitely plays a big role. So what I could tell you, starting at the top, surrogacy and IVF. If you were for someone who's just getting started on a surrogacy and IVF joint today in The United States, I prepare them to spend somewhere between a $150,000 and 240,000. Now I know you're both thinking, Brian, that's a really rather wide gap there. And I would say, you're right.

Brian Rosenberg: 25:11

It is. As you guys know, though, the issue is that there are a lot of variables in a surrogacy journey, some of which you can control and some of which you cannot.

Bret: 25:19

A lot of which you cannot.

Stephen: 25:20

Most of which you cannot.

Brian Rosenberg: 25:23

You guys are in the hard way. I know. And so so that is certainly one that makes that that does become a barrier for a lot of people for sure. An adoption to domestic infant adoption or domestic agency adoption, around forty to fifty thousand dollars.

Bret: 25:43

And then what about international? Or do do you have

Stephen: 25:45

a ballpark?

Brian Rosenberg: 25:46

Is around the same. The difference is remember I told you you're gonna you have to go to the country. You have to stay there for a while. Right. So whatever those costs are, plus the 40 to 50,000 that I mentioned for domestic includes all the legal stuff here.

Brian Rosenberg: 26:00

So think it's I don't remember if it's 5 to $10,000 extra on legal that you're gonna spend there as well. Yeah. And then the last is foster adopt. So on a very positive note, but, you know, the system is created to have to make it as easy as possible for people to become parents through the foster care system. Therefore, it doesn't cost any money.

Brian Rosenberg: 26:23

And not does it not cost any money, but the state will give you a stipend, and they'll pay you for certain living expenses and education and medical stuff. How much varies by state, so I can't get in I can't tell you what the exact dollar amount is. Sure. But, yeah, they're really you know, the the other thing you might have to come up with is getting whatever when you have a child coming in, making sure you have whatever is needed for that child, and maybe as part of your home study, sort of background check you have to pay for. But really, for the most part, it's negligible.

Bret: 26:57

Wow. And are there anything besides the financial benefits that you see between the two biological journeys or adoptive journeys?

Brian Rosenberg: 27:07

So, yeah, it's just, you know, I know people that wanted to adopt because their parents were adopted. They were adopted. Mhmm. Their best friends adopted. Their spouse is adopted.

Brian Rosenberg: 27:19

And they're just not like, it doesn't scare them. They're very familiar with it. I know other people who choose surrogacy and IVF. Number one, they they do wanna have a biological connection. But in addition to that, they feel like there's more control.

Brian Rosenberg: 27:32

And there are, as we talked about, a lot of variables, right, that you have no control over. But you can control, like, your egg donor, the surrogate you and the surrogate get to choose each other. Whereas with with birth moms, you know, she's gonna ultimately choose you. You could say no to the child if if if the you know, that situation is not one that you're comfortable with, but she's still running the show up until whatever state she lives in, what their laws are about giving up. And so I think that that scares people.

Brian Rosenberg: 28:01

They feel like they have even less control in an adoption journey.

Stephen: 28:07

Yeah. That's interesting. I mean, god, it's like got my brain like specifically, what are like some of the biggest challenges LGBTQ plus parents face during the adoption process, and how can they prepare for them? Are there barriers specific to gay parents? I'm sure it varies state to state.

Stephen: 28:28

Can you off the top of your head, do you know of any specific state laws that are more extreme than others?

Brian Rosenberg: 28:38

Yes. So h family equality has a great map where they show all the laws that are in place to protect us or not, to protect our children or not. So there are states that indirectly or directly limit adoption by LGBTQ plus folks. You know, they don't allow child welfare agencies to refuse placements with us, quite frankly, based on religious beliefs. There are states that protect us, which that I don't get.

Brian Rosenberg: 29:10

Like, I told you there are 400 375,000 kids in the foster care system.

Bret: 29:14

Right.

Brian Rosenberg: 29:15

A 113 or 19,000 freed up for adoption. These kids and I'll tell you, the kids, twenty percent every year of all the foster care kids age out. And when they age out, they've they've not been matched with the Burke family. Yeah. And the the the statistics about what happens to these kids is dismal, and it's so sad and so scary.

Bret: 29:39

These states are purposefully creating another barrier for them.

Brian Rosenberg: 29:43

Correct. Mhmm. So it's awful. So that's one. Number two, also adoption agency.

Brian Rosenberg: 29:49

I told you earlier, it's like one and four. I can tell you when I started GWK Academy, the first two conversations I had were with two couples. I was they were actually both doing foster care journeys, foster adopt. One was in, like, the South somewhere, and one was somewhere in the Midwest, but both red states. They didn't realize they had to do their homework about the agencies.

Brian Rosenberg: 30:12

They just went online, and the closest one to them is the one they went with. So two years two and a half years into this, both of them, one was two years, one was two and a half, they had not been matched with the foster care kids yet. Remember, there are

Stephen: 30:26

Right.

Brian Rosenberg: 30:27

400,000 309,000 kids in the system who all need temporary shelter, at the very least. And when they called them on it, they they they went back to their agency. What's going on? The agency said, well, I never promised you that you could you would have a kid, you'd be matched with a kid. So clearly, they they were not a religious based agency, so they couldn't deny working with them.

Brian Rosenberg: 30:50

They couldn't say no. However, they're not LGBTQ plus path. They're not, you know, friendly at all, and they're clearly and so they would have just kept them waiting in the system.

Stephen: 31:02

So it's like it's like going to a church and when they say all are welcome, but we don't, you know We don't affirm. We don't affirm. So how

Bret: 31:11

how would you suggest families overcome any of these biases or or specific laws? Well,

Brian Rosenberg: 31:17

so the laws could be a challenge, but, know, if you live in one of those states, you're gonna have to deal with it. I'll tell you, though, a couple of things. So number one is in every state, even the red is the red states, there still are organizations and people and agencies that want the best for these kids and know that that includes LGBTQ plus families. What we do at GWK Academy is we have this network that's always growing of agencies across the country. And if we don't know them, if we don't know of any, we go to HRC has a list.

Brian Rosenberg: 31:54

We go to the Dave Thomas Foundation for adoption. They have a list of agencies that they fund. And I've been promised I've been told by the CEO that Dave Thomas Foundation for adoption. If anyone I know goes to check one of their agencies out and they are not completely inclusive, I'm to tell her because she's gonna get back to them and they're gonna lose their funding. So from her.

Brian Rosenberg: 32:16

So

Bret: 32:17

That's great.

Brian Rosenberg: 32:17

There are ways. And so I think it what I tell people, it's critically important that you work with agencies that embrace LGBTQ plus family building. And, you know, it's I think it's kinda easy to tell. You go to their website. Do they have families like us?

Brian Rosenberg: 32:32

Or they go to social media sites. Do they have to know? And if they don't, if you don't see any families that look like the one you wanna build

Bret: 32:38

Stay away.

Brian Rosenberg: 32:39

Run away. Yeah. Exactly.

Bret: 32:45

Hey, friends. Quick pause from today's episode to tell you about something really special that we built just for you.

Stephen: 32:51

If you've been loving these convos on husbands to dads, then you'll definitely wanna check out the Broadway husband's neighborhood on Substack. That's where we get even deeper with our weekly joy chats and where it's just us, real talk, real life, and a little sparkle.

Bret: 33:08

Plus, we host a monthly community dance class. Yes. You heard that right. Whether you're a total beginner or just love moving your body with other people, it's joyful. It's low pressure, and it's full of love.

Stephen: 33:21

Plus, every week, we share thoughtful articles and newsletters on parenting, queerness, creativity, and community. Basically, everything that makes this little corner of the Internet so special.

Bret: 33:33

So if you're ready to be more connected, more supported, and maybe even just bust a move with us,

Stephen: 33:41

Come join us on Substack. Just head to broadwayhusbands.substack.com or click on the link in the show notes. We'll see you in the neighborhood. For families pursuing foster to adopt, how should they prepare for the possibility of reunification with a biological family?

Brian Rosenberg: 34:02

Alright. So it's a good question because it gets asked all the time. So remember what I said, the goal of the foster care system is reunification. So everyone going into this, unless they happen to you know, they're connected with you gotta believe and they know they're only gonna be matched with an older kid who's already free for adoption, or they happen to find one of the few agencies that says, okay, you only wanna be matched with some free that's great. We'll we'll do that.

Brian Rosenberg: 34:28

Everyone else, which is the vast majority of people, will be working with an agency or, you know, government entity that will tell them, you just need to you know, I understand you wanna become a forever family, but we have this kid who needs a place to sleep tonight. Not freed up for adoption. Who knows what's gonna happen? So if you wanna become a foster parent, that's what you gotta do is you gotta give this person a loving and safe home right away. So everyone going into this, really, it all these agencies give major trainings.

Brian Rosenberg: 35:01

Everyone knows that the idea is that these kids are gonna be reunified. Now sometimes it doesn't happen, and and and, you know, then in that case, maybe they can adopt them. But the goal is their job as a foster parent is to support the reunification process and to be empathy for the family and hope and help that take place. And I will tell you, does it hurt their hearts when they lose their kids who've been there with them for a while? Absolutely.

Brian Rosenberg: 35:35

And I've talked to a ton of people through GWK about this. But it also they know that they took a child who was at its most vulnerable time, right, who was at a worst time in his or her of their lives, and they gave this child a safe, loving, supportive environment, and they took care of this child until they're ready to move on. And while it's sad and hurts to see them go, they know that they did something super special for this kid. And when foster care when the system really works, and I'm not gonna I don't mean to suggest that it really works all the time because it definitely doesn't. But when it really works, they still get to stay connected with the kids even after they go back to their families.

Stephen: 36:21

Also, at what age typically do kids get freed up for adoption? You're kind of talking about like as they got a little bit older, is there a typical age that kids

Brian Rosenberg: 36:31

So I know that the average age child in the foster care system is eight or nine. So I could and there I forget the average time they're in there. It's over two years or around two years. So, but remember, many of the kids do not. Right?

Brian Rosenberg: 36:47

So it's of the 300 and something children, 75,000 children in the foster care system, about a 113,000 right now are gonna get freed up or freed up for adoption. And that never those never stay around. Actually, there's fewer people going. There used to be over 400,000 kids in the system pre COVID. So it's hard to say.

Brian Rosenberg: 37:08

You just know that there's gonna be over a 100,000 kids in the near future who are free for adoption, all different ages. How

Bret: 37:16

should families navigate difficult conversations about being a same sex family with their adopted children, particularly if they're in less inclusive environments?

Brian Rosenberg: 37:26

Good. So and I presume you're talking about when they talked to the foster care system so that a kid who's older. Because when you adopt a baby at newborn, we're gonna have the same conversations. Right. We're raise the kids the same way as

Bret: 37:36

And any parent.

Brian Rosenberg: 37:37

Yeah. Exactly. So, again, the agency, when you're working with the right agency, they'll start the process and they'll explain that, you know and and you'll just continue the conversations. There are lots of different, you know, families come in all shapes and sizes. Some have one parent, some have two parents, Some have two dads, some have two moms.

Brian Rosenberg: 37:56

Some have a mom and a dad. And they just really explain like that, you know, kids, like, it's a two second conversation, you know, depending on how little they are. It's really like a two second conversation. I've always been so I remember when my kids were younger and they were in elementary school and like someone say, wait, did you I haven't seen a mom, like what's going on? And say, we don't have them, we have two dads.

Brian Rosenberg: 38:16

Oh, really? Oh, okay. And then they go play like, you know, it's it's not a big deal. We make it a big deal. People make it a big deal.

Brian Rosenberg: 38:24

Adults make it a big deal. For kids, it's not at all. You just show them it's a loving family, and that's all that matters. And you're gonna talk about yourselves, and, you know, I think it's really important. And this is where I'd say it gets a little trickier ish.

Brian Rosenberg: 38:38

So I live in Massachusetts, the bluest of bluest states. Right? Wherever we go, my husband and I, when we're talking about with, like, if he's at school or something or if he's out doing something, he always refers to his husband. And he he goes out of his way to make sure people know he's gay and and or he'll talk about, like, he'll say, Sadie's got two dads or Sadie's other dad. He'll mention like, oh, well, you know, I'm gonna go with with Sadie's other dad.

Brian Rosenberg: 39:06

She's got two dads. He makes a big deal out of saying that. That might be a little uncomfortable for folks, but I think you need to get if you're gonna be willing to be a parent and you live in a community like this, you have to get out of your comfort zone a little bit, and you have to show your kids it's no big deal. You have to be the role model for them. And what I've heard from people like you guys who live in red states is that, you know, I know what happens at the the election level, but when it go to the con individual communities, people are treated well, and they make friends, and they're just as an important member of the community as everyone else.

Bret: 39:44

And It's true. It's true. I I I have a question for as especially someone who's who is part of a community as an adopted parent. Like, for someone who's an ally, maybe who is a parent whose kid goes to school with your kid or, is part of your parenting group and it's pretty obvious maybe that your child was adopted because of skin color or because of whatever other reasons that might come off or might be identifiable to someone outside, what should or shouldn't they ask or say to another parent in regards to adopting?

Brian Rosenberg: 40:24

So it's a great question because years ago, one of the first things we did, like our first year of gays with kids, was we created a video, things people ask gay dads. And I remember this. And it was all questions that people had literally asked us. And so then I'm like, alright. Maybe it's just us.

Brian Rosenberg: 40:44

So I did a poll, said to me, like, on Facebook back in the day and found and and every every and every scene and the things people ask gay dads had happened to a bunch of other people. So certainly, don't wanna, like, you don't wanna ask, how much did your family cost? Who plays the who's the mom? You you do I know it's great that you're a doctor, but you don't love the doctor kid the way you love the biological kids. Right?

Brian Rosenberg: 41:09

Like, there's just not comparison. I mean, who's or for for the case of the biological, whose sperm was it? Like, it's none about anyone else's business. So I think that kind of stuff, you stay away from, but I think it's perfectly legit to like you said, like, our son is black and my husband and I are white. So everybody knows they've always adopted.

Brian Rosenberg: 41:28

And I and we're very comfortable talking about it. So just stuff that's not, like, that is, like you know, someone else who we I I told you we live in a most progressive state in the country. And the first day of the elementary school, we moved here seven years ago. I'm gonna say well meaning, but who knows? Mom came up to my husband and I when we were dropping off the kids, she said, so who does the mommy stuff?

Brian Rosenberg: 41:54

And so, like are you serious? So I think it's, you know, it's okay to acknowledge when there's a conversation going on, with the child. To say the child, you know, families are built in all different kinds of ways. Some families, you know, the baby comes out of a mommy's belly. Other families comes out of a different person's belly.

Brian Rosenberg: 42:13

But these families, they are the one thing they have in common is they're all made with love. And I think you just talk that kind of stuff. And you have you have the books. There's so many. How do I know?

Brian Rosenberg: 42:23

So many. So Because people still tell us, they still write to us and say, I didn't think there were enough books out there, so I'm gonna write another one. And and that's great because we can't have enough. But so there's so many books out there that celebrate diverse families and stuff. So, you know, have one of those books around and have that kind of a conversation that way, not from, like, how much would it cost or, you know Right.

Brian Rosenberg: 42:46

What's the story with his birth mom or you know, that's like no one's business.

Stephen: 42:51

Thank you. What's one piece of advice you'd give to LGBTQ plus couples or individuals who are overwhelmed by the idea of adoption?

Brian Rosenberg: 43:00

So it's the same piece of advice I would give to anyone who is wanting to become a parent. And without sounding too self serving, because I know that's what's gonna come across as, I would say go to GWK Academy. Why? I mean, we it's free. We literally created it to become known as the first stop at any right now, gay man's journey to parenthood.

Brian Rosenberg: 43:23

But in 02/2025, we're gonna expand it, and we're gonna support the entire LGBTQ plus community and help everyone under the the umbrella become parents. And what I think the most important thing is first to even know what all your options are. Make sure you understand all your options, and we're gonna blow out our content to a lot more so everyone will know their options. Choose the path that makes the most sense for you. Again, it's a very personal decision, and it's deeply rooted in your own experiences.

Brian Rosenberg: 43:53

Which one talks to you? Once you're ready to get going, they're all gonna sound overwhelming, quite frankly, because they all are overwhelming. So schedule a coaching call with us. Go through the course. Each each course we have will take you through, you know, 15 to 16 videos, mostly videos that take you through everything you need to know about that journey before you get started.

Brian Rosenberg: 44:17

Because when my my husband and I were going on, you know, we have kids through adoption and surrogacy. I can tell you in Levi's now 15, the girls are 14, so we did a long time ago. We had no clue what we were doing. We felt I don't think we made a single decision feeling really confident that that was the right decision to be making. I don't want other people to feel that way.

Brian Rosenberg: 44:37

And so that's why we created GWK Academy. It's literally gonna once we add all this new stuff to it to support the entire LGBTQ plus community, it is gonna be the only platform of its kind to support everyone with all paths of parenthood. So why won't you come here and get educated? And if you have questions, we have coaches to help you. And we

Bret: 44:58

Well, and Sorry. And in support of that, I just wanna say, you know, everyone when you decide to have a kid, everyone will have an opinion.

Brian Rosenberg: 45:05

Yes.

Bret: 45:06

Your parents will tell you how you should do it.

Stephen: 45:08

And after you have a kid,

Bret: 45:10

they will have an opinion too. Everyone, like the stranger in the grocery store will tell you how to raise your child. Do not rely on other people's opinions and other people's thoughts and beliefs. Go and learn and get educated so you can make your own because it is a deeply personal decision that most people there's so much mystery around it all. Most people are not gonna have the right the right advice for you.

Bret: 45:33

You're you gotta sit with it yourself.

Stephen: 45:35

And just to add to that, I always tell people if you want to be a parent or you have that even like inkling of it, make a step, take a step tomorrow, right, because it is such a process. Go to the Gays With Kids Academy, check it out, look at the resources, take the first step because it's a process and it's not gonna happen overnight. And if you have that inside you, start your journey. Do it.

Brian Rosenberg: 46:03

Yeah. You guys just you guys just said something that was I found very funny. The advice. So Vernon and I, we had three kids under the age of two, so I'm sure we looked helpless as all could get up. But I will say we found that women, moms, in the early days when we had three kids, three babies, constantly coming up to us and helping us out.

Brian Rosenberg: 46:24

And and, you know, often we kinda appreciate that because our families weren't around where we were living. But when I talked to straight people or to women, they said, never in their lives has anyone just straight or balling chair to help out or, like, literally go on a plane and and the woman sitting in back in the row behind us, like, oh, let me go and help you carry the rest of the stuff then, the plane. Like, or we're at a restaurant trying to feed the babies and someone would go, would you like some help with that? And we're all just like, yeah, we'll take it. So I don't know if you experienced that at all.

Bret: 46:55

Yeah. I think I think there is something about seeing men with a baby that, unfortunately, I I think women with babies don't get the same response, and that is definitely shows a

Brian Rosenberg: 47:07

The

Bret: 47:08

disparity. Yeah.

Stephen: 47:09

Like the gender, you know, what people expect out of genders.

Bret: 47:13

But just to wrap things up since we since we're gonna wrap things up now, I I would love for you as an adoptive parent to talk about the experience you had of adopting your child. And, you know, I think most people have this misconception, which we we've talked about that somehow that child's not gonna feel like yours because you weren't in the birthing room or you weren't there because you adopted the child. They're not genetically tied to you. Can you talk about a moment or a moment where you realize that this child actually is 100% yours?

Brian Rosenberg: 47:44

Oh, yeah. So I could say and after so I I need to disclaimer here. Neither my husband nor I like, you know, some people love the little infants and the newborns and they just like, they can't wait. That is not our thing. Like, we we go through that phase because you have to, but it's not our thing.

Brian Rosenberg: 48:02

So we had a dog first, a Chihuahua named Duke. He was our first born. He's the reason we wanted to become parents because we loved him so much. We're like, we should become parents to real to people, not just the dogs. And I remember when we had someone come to help take care of Levi when he was, like, three or four days old.

Brian Rosenberg: 48:21

And Safford and I went out to dinner. And I'm like, so what do you think? And he's like, I don't know. What do you think? And I'm like, I don't know.

Brian Rosenberg: 48:29

Right now, I have to tell you, like, you we're not getting the warms and fuzzies from him. Like, leave Duke gives us a lot more warms and fuzzies, and I'm just exhausted all the time. And we said, let's just agree. We know that this is gonna change. Let's agree that we'll we'll tell each other as soon as it does.

Brian Rosenberg: 48:44

The next day, I held Levi, and I forget. I just looked at him a certain way or he looked at me a certain way. He coosed, and I just started crying without that feeling down. I just realized how much I loved him. And I'll tell you, the the the argue this the the discussion that I hear about, you know, biological children and adopted children, not the same.

Brian Rosenberg: 49:08

It's just be I could not possibly love Levi anymore, and I could not possibly love my girls anymore. They each own the peace of my heart and my husband's heart. And my husband, by the way, I'm the biological parents of our girls. I'm very you guys both know that it's no one's business. I'm very out about that because I'm also HIV positive, and so I want people who are positive to know they become a dad, biological, if they want to.

Brian Rosenberg: 49:33

He's he's an adoptive dad to all three. And so, like, it just does it's just no different. There's no difference. And in fact, you know, Levi, she has a lot of first personality traits. It's just they're they're two pings in a pods in many ways.

Brian Rosenberg: 49:48

And Sadie's like my sisters, and that was a little bit of mine. So there's just you can't imagine I can't possibly love this kid any more than I do. There is absolutely no difference between how you feel about a child that you've adopted and a child that you gave birth to biologically. And you know what? I I adopted Levi at birth, but I tell you right now, if I adopted if I took over, you know, adopted through the foster care system, got a kid, I know for a fact that within a very short time, they would own that same piece of real estate in my heart.

Brian Rosenberg: 50:24

Yeah. That's how it is.

Bret: 50:26

That's how it is.

Stephen: 50:28

That's so beautiful.

Bret: 50:29

And Steven's I like

Stephen: 50:31

having such an emotional day as it is, and this is just like, ugh.

Bret: 50:34

It's beautiful. We can't thank you enough for coming and talking to us about this, and and and thank you enough for all you do for our community. I mean, it's so important. Too. I think there's so many people out there who don't realize how possible it is for them to have this dream come true, and I think you you, every single day, make it seem possible for so many people.

Bret: 50:57

So thank you.

Brian Rosenberg: 50:58

Thank you. I appreciate that. And I love you know, you guys have heard me say this before. Anyone who's giving visibility to our families, the more we we especially now, we just need it. That's what changes people's hearts and minds.

Brian Rosenberg: 51:10

So I love the visibility you guys give to our families. And I love this podcast concept, so thank you.

Bret: 51:17

So we wanna give a big shout out to Brian for joining us today for this interview. We hope you got a lot of information out of it, and make sure you subscribe to our podcast. Leave a review on whatever podcast platform you listen to us on.

Stephen: 51:30

And, also, go check out Gays With Kids if you have any other questions that you want answered.

Bret: 51:36

And we'll talk to you in the next episode. We're gonna talk to Lisa Schuman. Lisa Schuman. Lisa Schuman actually was our social worker

Stephen: 51:46

Social worker.

Bret: 51:47

Helped us in processing our surrogacy. Lisa Schumann is the founder of the Center for Family Building, and she is so in touch with the entire donor conceived community. She knows so much about what it donor conception between surrogacy versus IVF and, all the other ways that unconditional families are built through donor conception. So it's a very interesting conversation. She's very knowledgeable, so you wanna make sure you subscribe and don't miss the next episode.

Bret: 52:15

See you there.